Should People Who Hand Themselves In Afer The Riots Be Sentanced Heavily?

Why are people who may have participated in the 'Riots', who hand themselves in and have no 'previous', who did not break into a property, but merely walked into an already wrecked property and took an item, often of low(ish) value, being made an example of?

Is this because the people who are punishing them are rather to the right of centre? Or perhaps they are so disapproving of the riots that they are putting their foot down? Otherwise they may be being influenced by the statements of members of the government who are calling for these harsh sentences?

While justice should be swift, it should still be measured!

Posted via e-mail from my mobile with no spell checking

Something From Forbes (I'm Only Passing This On As it Comes From Forbes!)

Please Check this out. Forbes is a reliable source, but it seems a bit odd that this comes from them. Rather too left of centre to be their normal fare!

http://blogs.forbes.com/joelkotkin/?p=361

Legal Differences - If You Are A Youth, Should You Be Named?

Why is it that a youth who kills another under 16 year old in a London park can not be named, but someone of the same age who posts on Facebook that people should riot in Bangor (possibly) is named in a Worcester court? What is going on here! The riot did not happen, but the other guy was murdered. Which one do you think should be named?

This seems wrong!

The Riots in Croydaon - The Response From Crystal Palace FC

Crystal Palace (the professional football team based the closest to Croydon), are giving away 1000 thickets to their home game against Blackpool on the 27th of August.

The tickets are going to the people who have been the most affected by the riots in Croydon on the 9th August (homes destroyed, businesses trashed, etc.) and members of the emergency services who helped them on that night.

I commend their altruism and community spirit, especially as they are not the most wealthy of football clubs.

Oh, I'm an Aston Villa supporter in case you were wondering.

Please do the poll above before it expires.

August Riots - Cameron's Smoke Screen For The Economy? (A Conspiracy Theory)

David Cameron and his advisors are saying good 'ole Dave is on safe ground going on about Britain's broken society (he's been doing it for the last 5 years). They think the sort of speech he put out today will increase his popularity.

If the government want to increase their flagging popularity, pave the way for a limited U-turn on spending cuts to the Tories' favorite areas of expenditure (police, prisons), and deflect the public's attention away from the terrible state of the economy and the lack of growth that is likely to happen, wouldn't a countrywide set riots and looting be a good ploy? If everyone is focused on the riots, the Conservatives will be able to go on about Law and Order (traditionally one of their big themes), nobody will notice the economy going to heck in a hand-basket, and News International can fade into the background (Labour were getting good mileage out the phone hacking scandal).

So the riots look good for the government at the moment. Did they set them in motion? I doubt we will ever know.

(WARNING: Conspiracy Theory)

August Rioting - Political Sound-bites Begin

Now the rioting has finished, politicians are falling over each other to produce what I call the 'sound-bite policies', knee-jerk outpourings that will produce, if implemented, totally lousy laws.

How about removing benefits from people who have convicted of looting, but get a non-custodial sentence? Seems to me a fine way of getting them to commit more thefts or robberies!

Or how about evicting the parents of children suspected of participating in the riots from their council housing? The only person that this has happened to yet is a devout church-going woman who has had no contact with her son, who is suspected of rioting, for several years. Seems like a good call.

Calls for a public inquiry are equally naive, as such an inquiry will take for ever to reach a conclusion (the equivalent of kicking it into the long grass) and may well get 'hijacked' by the government (who will make sure it is chaired by someone is 'sound' and 'one of us').

Left wing politicians are saying that it is the high unemployment rates and lack of opportunities in inner city areas. Right wing politicians go on about lack of moral values, rampant criminality, the inability of single mothers to raise their children, and lazy, greedy unemployed people. Both (as politicians in the centre are just mumbling into their beards) are probably right and therefore both are indubitably wrong, for to only see part of the answers is to see no answers at all. If you only see answers that fit your political views, you are not going to be able fix the underlying problems, and that is worse than useless. "There is none so blind as he who will not see."

See Also:

• http://deadmanchatting.blogspot.com/2011/08/what-did-cause-riots.htm
• http://deadmanchatting.blogspot.com/2011/08/uk-riots-gordon-gekko-for-chavs.html 

UK Riots - The Statistical View

Well if you want to look at the stats behind the the recent riots in the UK, you should listen to this program: More or Less. And listen too the NPR show they got a bit from as well Planet Money!

Or If you would like to hear a phone in on the causes on the London Riots, try listening to this:  The Best of Vanessa (even though Vanessa was off this week).

And if you may like to check out Panorama on the Beeb on the 15th.

Pictures Of The Aftermath Of Riots In Croydon - London Road - London Riots

A pawnbrokers on the corner of London Rd and Oakfield Rd, burnt out in the riots

This was a Ladbrooks & a convenience store prior to the riots

The pub I was in during the unrest (above photo 50m south)

The most unfortunate banner in Croydon!

I think that the rioters burnt out the buildings to destroy forensic evidence, or just possibly just because they liked to see the flames!

See Also: http://deadmanchatting.blogspot.com/2011/08/what-did-cause-riots.html

Please do the questionnaire above!

What Did Cause The Riots ...

The riots seem to be over (changes in police tactics, visible punishments, rain, you can take your pick which was the most important in their ending).

In their wake we need to find out why the riots took place in the first place. There are a number possible causes:

• The death of Mark Duggan (personally I think that this may have been a contributory factor in the events in Tottenham, but not the later riots),
• Organized gang crime,
• Poor people reacting against the austerity measures,
• A feeling that if the rich and politicians could get away with improprieties, then we should be able to get away with it too,
• People just wanted a ruck,
• Youth boredom and lack of youth facilities,
• Greed,
• Police relations (or lack thereof) with minority cultures,
• A loss of moral values and bad parenting,
• A feeling of disconnection from politicians and political processes and hence disenfranchisement,
• Massive inflation on necessities,
• Unemployment and lack of economic growth,
• All of the above.

Whatever the real reason(s) for the riots, it/they must be discovered (if only to prevent them from reoccurring), and politicians and the press must not be allowed to manipulate any inquiry process that may take place to 'prove' that it was 'all the fault of [enter simplistic reason here] , and these draconian measures will cure everything', and subvert it too their own ends!

See Also: http://deadmanchatting.blogspot.com/2011/08/broken-britian-becomes-sick-as-growth.html

Broken Britain Becomes Sick As Growth Forecast Falls To 1.4%

David Cameron said Britain has moved from 'Broken' to 'Sick' in a typical politicians sound-bite utterance in relation to the riots that had broken out all over London, as well as in Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, Medway, Nottingham, Oxford, Reading, Leicester, Gloucester, Wolverhampton and West Bromwich. (Link to Wikipedia entry on the riots)

Earlier in the day Mervyn King, Governor of the Bank of England, had downgraded the UK growth forecast to 1.4%. In this, I personally believe that he is being very optimistic.

The economic circumstances of the UK is generally thought to be a contributory factor (if only a minor one) in the rioting earlier in the week. This is being made worse (if this is possible) by the government's austerity measures.

The initial police response to the rioting and looting was not particularly robust. This may have been due to some senior officers thinking "If we are going to suffer cuts in police numbers, lets show the government what this may look like in a public order situation", or it may have been that they did not think fast enough on their feet, or even fear of police officers being prosecuted if they went in too hard. If it was the first reason, then it has backfired as Dave is adamant the police cuts must go ahead.

If Britain is 'Sick', then I don't think David Cameron is the cure.

See Also:

• http://deadmanchatting.blogspot.com/2011/08/uk-riots-new-spectator-sport.html
• http://deadmanchatting.blogspot.com/2011/08/why-central-bankers-statements-will-not.html

And remember, I'm interested in your answers to the question above.

UK Riots - A New Spectator Sport?

While I was walking back from picking up some shopping in Croydon this afternoon (no buses as London Rd. is closed in several places due to damage caused during the riots), I popped into a pub for a swift half. On the TV was Sky News. Up popped a 'plug' for another story. It said:

"Watch Manchester Riots on channel 517. Also in HD"

This makes it look like Sky News is treating rioting like some weird form of spectator sport. I really think that they were not intending to give that impression, but Sky News need to take a lot more care in their phrasing to avoid causing offense.

See Also: http://deadmanchatting.blogspot.com/2011/08/uk-riots-bope-em-londres-solution.html

UK Riots - "BOPE Em Londres" - A Solution?

My 'friend'  on Facebook, Brazilian Day London, suggested we needed 'BOPE em Londres' during the riots" on Monday night! A rather more violent solution than this particular Brit would be happy with, but I can see where they are coming from!

See Also: http://deadmanchatting.blogspot.com/2011/08/uk-riots-promoting-religious-unity.html

Also it seems Bo-Jo is getting that way, saying water cannon are ready to be deployed in London (I didn't even know there were any outside Northern Ireland!)!

UK Riots - Promoting Religious Unity?

Something I heard on the radio overnight.

It seems that the Muslim, Sheikh and (possibly) Hindu communities in Southall, West London, have banded together to protect their Mosques, Temples and other holy places (as well too as, to a lesser extent, their shops and homes).

While I am not keen on vigilantism, these people have been told they are on 'Holy Duty' so they are not allowed to use force except in self defence. I really do applaud this show of religious unity. It is one of the few good things to come out of this mess.

See Also: http://deadmanchatting.blogspot.com/2011/08/uk-riots-rise-of-vigilante.html

UK Riots - Gordon Gekko for Chavs?

I saw this on Newsnight last night.

It was suggested the the looting was a manifestation of the "Greed is Good" mantra espoused by Gordon Gekko in the movie Wall Street. As the bankers, who the general public feel are largely responsible for current financial crisis get their huge bonuses back, and ex-public school millionaire toffs who are leading the government, bringing in savage austerity measures with the happy cry of "We're all in it together" while seeming not to suffer any discomfort, it was put forward that the looting is working class or lower middle class types, who are suffering a lot of unemployment and/or poverty, are just 'getting their share'.

This is possible. It is also possible that it is a load of leftist sociological cattle manure. Take your pick.

To me it suggests that the looters are just as greedy as City bankers! And greed as a prod to success may have become to overrated, as it seems to now be just a prod to criminality!

(If it turns out this is all just bored greedy school-kids whiling away the summer holidays with a bit of 'Clockwork Orange' style 'Ultra-Violence', I will be very ticked off!)

See Also: http://deadmanchatting.blogspot.com/2011/08/uk-riots-rise-of-vigilante.html

For those who are not English, this is what a 'Chav' is. Or perhaps you would prefer this definition. cf 'Hoodie'

Oh, and please fill in the questionnaire above if you have the time.

UK Riots - The Rise Of The Vigilante?

Well, increasing the police presence in London did reduce the problems to almost nothing. But, were the riots in Manchester, Salford, etc partially due to a reduced police presence there as officers had been sent to London?

I notice that it kicked off in Gloucester last night. Having lived there in the 70s, it suggests to me to that a lot of this violence has more in common with the football related violence of the 70's and early 80's, than incidents like the Brixton and Toxteth in the 80's. And I'm not really surprised that copy-cat looting and violence broke out there!

What could be considered more worrying is the rise of groups of people on the street defending commercial properties and homes from potential rioters. Were this is local shopkeepers and residents this is understandable (if a little worrying - shouldn't the police be doing this and will it lead to the 'defenders' using excessive force and getting arrested?), but what is scary is the fact that members of the far right English Defense League (who Anders Behring Breivik claimed allegiance with) have been turning up (after drinking heavily according to some sources) in order to 'defend*' certain areas.

Any involvement of far right groups is only going to end badly, and lead to a rise in vigilantism (not a good thing).

See Also:

• http://deadmanchatting.blogspot.com/2011/08/riots-intelligence-failure.html
• http://deadmanchatting.blogspot.com/2011/08/london-riots-8th-aug.html
• http://deadmanchatting.blogspot.com/2011/08/london-riots-8th9th-aug-my-experience.html
• http://deadmanchatting.blogspot.com/2011/08/london-riots-6-7-aug-2011-musings-on.html

* For defend read 'cause racially motivated violence'

The Riots - An Intelligence Failure?

Police in London are claiming that there was no prior intelligence about last night's disturbances.

If it is true, why are so many local people popping up on the radio saying that they had heard hints of what was to be, some even reporting their information to the police?

If the troubles were organised using social media via mobile devices, where is the SIGINT? GCHQ should have been able to provide some support on this (provided that this was felt to be of high enough importance!)? Perhaps mobile data networks could have been closed down in order to thwart this sort of activity?

As I write this I can hear the helicopters circulating overhead.

See Also:

• http://deadmanchatting.blogspot.com/2011/08/london-disturbances-where-next.html
• http://deadmanchatting.blogspot.com/2011/08/london-riots-8th-aug.html
• http://deadmanchatting.blogspot.com/2011/08/london-riots-8th9th-aug-my-experience.html
• http://deadmanchatting.blogspot.com/2011/08/london-riots-6-7-aug-2011-musings-on.html

London Disturbances - Where Next?

After the disturbances in London last night, the news suggests that police are going to be bought in from other forces.

If this happens, is it possible that the disturbances may 'kick off' in the areas/towns/cities where the police are being pulled from to police London?

See also:  http://deadmanchatting.blogspot.com/2011/08/london-riots-8th9th-aug-my-experience.html

Music To Riot To ...

• The Clash - White Riot
• The Rolling Stones - Street Fighting Man
• The Who - Won't Get Fooled Again
• Elvis Costello & The Attractions - Oliver's Army
• The Doors - The End
• The Beatles - Revolution

Please feel free to comment with any other suggestions you may have. If you can't laugh where I am at the moment, you would have to burst into floods of tears.

London Riots - 8th/9th Aug - My Experience

OK, I live in Croydon. You may have seen some of the fires on your TV.

I went out at 5:30pm (BST) to go to a local Irish pub for 2 or 3 pints of guinness. I was just thinking about going home at 6:30pm when the barman locked us all in! He was worried that the violence & looting that had just kicked off near West Croydon station (Rail/Overground). Fair enough, I thought, there is nothing to loot round here, so I'll stay in for a couple of hours and ride the problem out!

Two hours later I was treated to the vision of a burning pawnbrokers about 1200m south of where I was sitting on the TV.  And then it just got worse! About 8pm the barman started handing out pool cues and tabel legs to the Irish builders who were in the pub (I stuck with my metal urban shooting stick, thinking that if anyone got in I could ram it into their throat to disable them).

We stayed there, occasionialy taking a glance out of the window on to London Road to see what was happening, hearing (and then watching) Reeves Corner going up in flames, but secure in the knowledge that it would be hard to get into this pub, but leaping up with our "weapons" in our hands every time someone kicked at the door or hammered on the windows.

At about 10:45pm we heard a loud bang from the one door we had not considered, Four of the Irish gents had gone upstairs to their rooms to grab a bite to eat leaving me (53), Brendan (75+), an Irish workman who's boss had sent him in to check if the pub (that has rooms to let) would be able to accomodate himself and 4 other coleagues, and the barman. To our supprise it was an Asian bloke who had broken through the door an was demanding a drink as well as yelling for his (as it turned out) non-existant friends to join him.

Not knowing how many people we were likely to be facing, we bailed out via the back door into the yard, locking it behind us. We notified the fuzz (not as if they were going to be of any use in the circumstances that were happening), and waited for the guy and his (non-existant) gang to break through the back doors of the pub, while we clutched our improvised weapons and vowed to sell our lives dearly.

After about 3 or 4 minutes we reopened the door to find that the intruder had fled due to two of the Irish builders (one of whom was built like a brick outhouse) coming down with improvised clubs in thier hands. We then baricaded them baricaded the door where the intruder had made his ingress with a varitey of stools, bar-stools and tables to prevent anyone else opening that doot more than an inch and a half.

As it happened, about 15 to 20 miutes after we had got back into the bar we heard about the non-fatal shhoting in West Croydon and mentally congratulated ourselves for not taking the mo-fo on in case he had been carrying heat.

Well, we all stayed i there untill about 1am when a few of us ventured out to supply bottled water to the firemen how were putting out the flames of the bookies that hat been torched just about 25 yards South of us.

After that I decided that it was probably OK to make my way home (however on my way back I did encounter a large number of people with hoods up and scraves or surgical masks on - not to mention a pair of scallies with a recycling box and a coulple of plastic bags full of dubious goods), getting back just before 2am.

If I had the contacts I would be picking up a kevlar vest, a chain mail shirt, a katana and either a 9mm (Glock or H&K) or a ferret (a heavilly sawn off shotgun).



If you would like to see what the Beeb has to say about toninght's violence, please follow this link.

See Also:

• http://deadmanchatting.blogspot.com/2011/08/london-riots-8th-aug.html
• http://deadmanchatting.blogspot.com/2011/08/london-riots-6-7-aug-2011-musings-on.html